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Author Topic: Maps  (Read 32684 times)

Haerangil

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Maps
« on: June 24, 2013, 10:03:21 am »

Hi there!

First of all I#ve joined the Forum because I'm curious about the project and I wanted to ask you for permission to post some of your great graphics on the MERP Wiki (http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Middle-earth_Role_Playing_Wiki)  They would be a really fantastic addition...

regards
Haerangil
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monks

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Re: Maps
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 09:32:57 pm »

Hi Haerengil, welcome to the boards! That's a cool site! Did you do all of that yourself?

Sure, post whatever you like. I've got the contents of our main site on hd as well:
http://www.me-dem.me.uk/

We're looking for a wiki I think...I was wondering if you could help or advise???
http://worlds.outercraft.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.new;topicseen#new

monks



ps you can find a good map of Edoras here:
http://www.outerra.com/forum/index.php?topic=843.75
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 09:36:21 pm by monks »
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Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 04:48:23 am »

Thank you,

I think especially your graphics of the Forodwaith and Near-Harad Lands would fit in perfectly!

I´d like to help but I'm not an expert for databases... that's why i chose Wikia, because it's open and free.I've heard thar Mediawiki is pretty good however...

about Merpedia.... well I've done a lot on it but not alone, there are other contributors as well.And after all It's just a tribute to all the original work that has been done by the people from ICE and many others...  I see myself rather as the chronicler than the inventor or explorer.
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monks

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Re: Maps
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 12:41:42 pm »

I was looking through your wiki and I found the Forodwaith maps and there was some extra detail in them which might be useful to us. I used the ICE Northern Waste scenario to place towns and such and the topo map ain't that great. I see one of your maps has some more forests on there which would be great to use. So I'll have to add those to the core GIS data, and will incorporate them into any future versions.
 I also quite like the global rendition map- it fitted with my ideas how I imagine I would create it= strongly suggestive of Earth but changed. That's still a possibility for the future as we can create terrain an order of magnitude faster now with our knowledge and better tools.
 Yes, I know quite a bit about Tolkien, but I'm not a purist, in that I'm just having fun with it- I'm speaking for myself when I say that, others may have their own motivations and views.
 If you have access to any better maps of the north, Harad or Rhun area please let us know. I know there is a more detailed map of the Rhun area but it's probably lost on old hds.
 I also like the site maps like the Dwarven strongholds- would be great to get them all in modelled in 3D. :-D
 Oh yes, before I forget, I made some detailed maps of the City of Gundabad and the surrounding area which you might like to include on the wiki.They're in pdf form. I took the ICE scenario and took the core area of each city level as detailed in the scenario, and drew it on a sheet of A1 paper. I then extended the tunnels using the feature distribution information in the scenario. The maps are large scale so the tunnels are in line form with features/areas marked with lettering scheme. I also mapped out the sewerage system and wetways as they were called, which can be travelled by barge navigating between levels via a system of vertical locks. The fungal caves and the mines are detaield as well.
 The surrounding area map is a canyon running through the Gundalok shelf. There are tunnels connecting various places throughout the entire Rhovanion area.
 I think what would be sweeet is to have a url link system in Outerra (it already has something very similar in a Google Style hud display in the corner). So you could click on a site in the world and it would open up some info either in game or in a broswer or something. As we've said before, this is not a game, but a visualisation, so something like that would be perfect.

monks
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Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 06:47:40 am »

I#ve drawn quite a lot of maps in my  time, but they're quite bad in comparison to the ones drawn by Mister Fenlon, Thomas Morwinski or Sampsa Rydman...

most of them are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45380944@N05/sets/

the continental maps are all based on Pete Fenlons original map, but the outlines of his drawings were laid upon real-world map coastlines by me so the proportions are far bigger.I also experimented with a small globe, first I laif Tolkiens shaping of ME maps on a real-world globe, then i altered the coastlines to align them with the ICE maps...
 
it#s not purist, i just tried to find some kind of compromise between the ICE Version and most other Versions that are based on shaping of middle-earth.

One thing i always tried to do with my maps of the westlands was use all information, first Tolkiens and Christopher Tolkiens own maps, the ICE, then Daniel Reeves Decipher maps and finally the Maps from LOTRO, where for example the great woodlands of the Forodwaith I used in my map have their origin.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 06:49:33 am by Haerangil »
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monks

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Re: Maps
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 07:50:56 am »

 They're some cool maps Haerengil- you should put them up on the Cartographer's Guild. I especially like the world of Arda maps. Might it be possible to animate the evolution of those?...with some intermediate steps I think you could.
Thomas's Numenor is pretty excellent and Sampsa's Pelennor I'd love to see in Outerra some day. I was going to contact Sampsa about that but I wasn't sure what we could offer him in return other than exhibting his work. I'm learning 3D Max myself at the moment.
 I've given it some thought over the years and I think it'd be possible to reshape our map and terrain using Photoshop warping tools. It'd also be possible to make new terrain from scratch. At some point in the future I'd like to extend what we've got to the entire globe.
 There are important thing we need to do first though, and it's always a matter of how much time you have- it's a very small project really. I don't consider the terrain part of the project to be "finished" until we have Outerra's biomes in place- basically varied user-definable enviroments. Things will look a lot better then.
 I'll post you alink top those Gundabad maps anyway soon. I think they'd be a nice optional addition for gms to use out there.
 

monks
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Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 10:16:02 am »

Thanks a lot! Sadly I'm not at all skilled in 3d Animation so i stuck to pencil and Watercolours or Photoshop drawing so far...

Yes the World of Arda maps... they were kind of tricky... I liked Karen W. Fonstadts Versions but her continent is far too small, the entire planet would be just a quarter of our Earth if they'd be taken literally...  they also contradict Aragorn's statement that he'd travelled south where the stars were different...  which must mean that Middle-Earth stretches far over the equator in the South.

So i took a Gall–Peters projection and tried to fit Tolkien's sketches on it...  the Westlands and Beleriand are thus far smaller in comparison to the entire continent... But actually I'm more pleased with the maps laid upon a real globe... after all Pete Fenlon's maps use several distinct similarities to the real world, his Barl Syrnac and Bay of Utum is obviously derived from the coastal lines of the kara sea and the west siberian lowlands while his northern peninsula seems to be derived from the north siberian lowland and the severnaya zemlya.Also in the east the lands of aegan are quite similar to the bay of okhotsk, the red gulf of aegan is close to the yellow sea and the sea of japan and the Lands of Lôchas D^rus bear a strong resemblance to Vietnam and the Gulf of Thailand.Similarly the Bay of Ormal seems to be based on the Arabian Sea, the Jopi Penisula on India and West-Harad on West-Africa. Only the utter south is more complicated since it's quite far from Tolkien's drawing as well as real-World Black Africa...
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monks

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Re: Maps
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 01:26:52 pm »

Thanks for adding our images to the wiki!
 Yeh, I mean like a flash animation in 2D. You could probably morph between the maps and show an evolution in time. One way would be to use Photoshop (or Gimp?) warping tools and create some intermediate steps from the existing maps. Then run the maps through an image morpher. You might not even need to create the intermediate maps to get ok results. It's all possible in 3D too but you'd need maps with height information.

 In my experience, working with converting 2D to 3D maps, you don't need artitstically well
drawn maps, or maps of huge detail. Detailed maps can be produced after you have the 3D detail in place. Not everyone likes contours on a mps though- especially folks who prefer the olde worlde styles like Fenlon, but I seem to remember Tolkien did have some contours on his maps, albeit more impressionistic contours.

 In the case of mapping the rest of the globe and turning it into 3D, I'd take exising maps nd
warp them in Photoshop. You could do that with either 2d maps like yours of maps of the world, or you could even warp the heightmaps from satellite data. You'd need to downsample quite a bit though, but I think you could probably work at something like a 40K pixel resolution for the entire globe in Photoshop. That would be enough to get you started.
 Another way is to work with vectors, I know a workflow for both methods.

 I couldn't really see a striking resemblance between Barl Syrnac area and the northern coasts you mentioned, but it's safe to say Fenlon would have used those. Maybe you can point out in more detail which areas you mean?

 The next step for us is to create very basic sites that fit precisely with the terrain. Then
those sites can be developed into full detailed 3D models. We're waiting for biomes to be
developed, but we're also waiting for stuff like lakes and rivers and some kind of vector import so we can place roads and stuff much more quickly. I'm not even going to attempt to create roads in there without that functionality!  :D The developers also want to develop underground areas too- again vector import coupled with a procedural tunnel, cave generator, would enable huge areas like Moria to be created.

monks
 
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jvangeld

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Re: Maps
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 03:23:01 am »

Hi Haerangil, I second Monks in thanking you for the links to those images!  They look really heplful!
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Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 02:44:26 pm »

Thank you  :)
I counld't adjust Mr. Fenlons maps until I worked with  a globe and maps depicting a round world.

this is real World Siberia:


I see a strong similarity between the Ob estuary and the mouths of the Talathrant, so I interpret the Barents and Kara Sea as the Bay of Utum.The Novaya Zemlya look like one of the Barl Syrnac peninsulas and the coastline of Sharthax and Uab has a striking similarity top the northern siberian coasts.



I drew this map combining both:


on my Globe:


I took the arctic Sea and polar regions as the Iced Realm and frozen sea...  as you can See I#m still not yet finished. I#m working on it and hope to improve it and draw better maps in the near future...

I hope to find a Way to use this reinterpretation of Mr. Fenlons Maps for a new , globed map of southern Middle-earth too...

A flash animation of the Shaping of Arda would be a really cool thing...  but I don't know yet If I can do it...  maybe if I have a better Idea what the utter South looks like...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:04:21 pm by Haerangil »
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Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 12:51:04 pm »

Hi there!

I´ve recently tried to reshape pete Fenlons continental map by projecting his map over a real-world    equal-area and isogonic projection https://www.flickr.com/photos/45380944@N05/12812910113/



As you may notice the northern/Forodwaith and barls syrnac parts are based directly on your MEDEM maps

i´ve however still not advanced in creating a real globe.

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PytonPago

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Re: Maps
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 03:23:30 pm »

Have to say, its really somehow strange ... it looks kinda like Pangea in early stages of plate tectonics. But some regions seem to be too much Mountainy for such a state ...

The earth had its collision back when Moon was formed, so Pangea was actually a rest from the afterwards gravity play (just as moon has its "black seas" on the visible side) but ripped by later core-dynamics. Would be interesting to see some (even if lightish fantasy driven) tectonic plate sketch for it. Mostly for finding local weather types due to global oceanic and atmosphere flows.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 03:26:49 pm by PytonPago »
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We are still undeveloped as long as we don´t realize, that all our science is still descriptive, and than beyond that description lies a whole new world we just haven´t even started to fully understand.

monks

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Re: Maps
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 09:50:57 pm »

I really like it....you can get into those considerations all day long Pyton but I don't ever see any decent maps out there that were created with those principles. I see lots of people starting out with those principles.....but how many people finish, or even get half way to realising this kind of stuff in any depth? You just have to live with the imperfections... :)

 It'd be great to do a version of this in Outerra..... ;D

monks
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PytonPago

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Re: Maps
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 06:08:58 am »

 ... but you just need to hook up a few hundred thousand field experts from universities for that.  ;D  ;D  ;D
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We are still undeveloped as long as we don´t realize, that all our science is still descriptive, and than beyond that description lies a whole new world we just haven´t even started to fully understand.

Haerangil

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Re: Maps
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 10:40:28 am »

Yes... if those would be the proportions of Middle-Earth it would be a REALLY HUGE continent...

Now one could understand why  Aragorn thought in "the far countries of Rhun and Harad (...) the stars are strange" since the continent reaches far out into the southern and eastern hemisphere...

I had to add all those Mountains because they were part of the original maps Iǜe used... however I think most of them would have been not higher or maybe even smaller than the Evendim Hills.The Orocarni, Ered Engrim, Hithaeglir and Ered Nimrais would be the highest mountain ranges... perhaps with the remnants of the Southern Grey Mountains, Yellow Mountains and Mountains of the wind.Iḿ not sure about the Ered Laranor and Ered Harmal...  The ICE Books state that the Ered Laranor were parts of the eastern Yellow Mountains bent westwards after the great cataclysm and the Ered Harmal formed somehow by the fall of the great Lamp Ringil...  however looking at Tolkien's sketches to me it would seem more likely that the western Arm of the Ered Harmal was a remnant of his southern grey Mountains and it's eastern reaches possibly related to the Highlands on the Isle of Almaren. The Ered Harmal also could rather be a remnant of the Mountains of the Wind, given that Tolkien stated Men awoke in mesopotamia, which would place them and Hildorien more to the center of the continent, roughly the equivalent of the Chy-Lands.
 

I've asked a friend of mine to help me with a globe, but that would be a more simplified map  not that detailed. We'll see...
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